Here's a place to talk about how to groom their cute little money mustaches, along with your own parental mustache. It’s not, especially if you’re truly Financially Independent. Facts do too (NEVER give beta blockers to a CHF patient?). He and his wife retired from middle-income jobs before they had their son. What percentage of your portfolio do you reserve for "play money"? [Update prior to publication- It's at least 3 times as fun.] If you read through some of his old articles and see some of the lifestyle choices he makes, it makes MMM seem downright extravagant. I too am an avid reader of both these blogs. I didn’t do it to save money; rather to prove to myself that even a lowly, non-interventional flea can break a sweat with manual labor. Instead of spending 2 hours on a grocery store run on your bike, perhaps you could run down and back in 30 minutes and spend an hour and a half volunteering at the school. They saved 65% of it for seven years, then retired at 30 so they could raise a family. Every so often I come across references to financial advice blogs, and one that keeps re-surfacing is “Mr. The intentions are solid, but can be misconstrued as inflexible. Who find fulfillment from their jobs? Nice to have options, anyway. Some do, some don’t. And yet it has the audacity to call itself IWillTeachYouToBeRich.com Here’s the article, called The Psychology of Cutting Back on Lattes, if you want to compare it to your own value… We're pretty much the same age, live in similar areas of the country and share lots of interests — we both enjoy personal finance, we hate spending money on stuff that doesn't make us happier, we both enjoy cycling, although I confess not to enjoy it very much in the snow, and we have both conditioned ourselves to enjoy suffering just for the sake of suffering. Oh, Mr. Money Mustache is pissed off today. But yeah, your completely on point that not every speciality has this option. « on: December 30, 2013, 04:10:43 PM » 2014 is the year of no (or very little) unnecessary spending as I look to wipe out the final $12K in student loan debt and add some cash to my Vanguard targeted fund. He excels at motivation and his lifestyle encourages us all to stop, examine the big picture and think about what we would like our end game to look like.  Nor will my wife and I ever get to the point where we only spend $80 on food every month, total. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4. Invest your money in simple investments like index funds and investment real estate. Kevin, make that 2 docs who want their kid to go into medicine. 31412 Posts 1371 Topics Last post by Fishindude in Re: Factoring College in... on Today at 12:06:30 PM Taxes. Basically he lives on $7000/year somewhere in the Bay Area. But I do my own financial planning and investing. Or helping someone out on the internet. This is a very late reply to this post, but can you really brag on how sustainable such a tenuous “cohabitational relationship” really is. After a few weeks, I realized that if you do not have meaningful work, even leisure starts to feel like work. Noone ever died of a crooked tooth. Neither my wife or I will ever stop working or earning money in some form, but I do plan to “retire” before I’m 45. Many people confuse between the two. I referred to each of them, and where I thought you missed the point with the critique. Starting at 7 pm. Lol yeah, most of the jobs out there aren’t ones that many people would actually WANT to do… if they didn’t need the money. [Edit: The link I posted was not a publicly available link, so I’ve removed it. If someone saves like crazy and retires with enough to get by at 30, he is vulnerable to a financial shock that could cut his savings in half or more. I’m in for $75 already…. It is very much an abundance mentality, but the abundance is in deciding what to do with one’s time when one can step off the treadmill. I’ve never gotten on board with the idea of early retirement though. Then I pay taxes on it. Mr. Money Mustache is on Facebook. Sometimes I do feel like his answer to every struggle is move to Colorado and ride your bike, but I think he genuinely wants to motivate people to push towards a happier, more sustainable life. He seems to be the kind of person who can do a plumbing job at his home or his rentals without outsourcing. Sure. I went golfing every day (the university course sold me an unlimited three-month pass for $100 or so.) I take home all my pay. I appreciate the fact that he sets an extreme perspective, but it’s also very easy to compromise his philosophy to fit your own lifestyles and goals. If I live a MMM-style existence, I’m financially independent from ever having to work again.  His has been around for 4 years and, of course, his blog is hugely popular and far more well read than mine. The book summarizes the most important information on the blog and contains material not found on the site at all. It was the summer between the 1st and 2nd years of medical school. MMM has showed me some of the values needed to this, WCI has showed me many of the tools. I have enough savings/investments/pension to cut back to .25FTE (which I did for 8 months), but I found an opportunity that involved teaching residents so I went back to work full-time. You’re free to work on whatever you want.  Of course, this doesn't mean that his earlier shorter pieces were short on quality, but his publishing schedule left very little in the way of anticipation for the reader simply because his posts came so often. . To keep this blog ad-free, this post may contain affiliate links and/or paid placement. It is also possible that he changed his mind and deleted the original blog post, pocketing more than he initially promised. He graduated with a degree in computer engineering in the 1990s and worked … I couldn’t find one either. It’s about having the freedom and independence to live a fulfilled life. Your email address will not be published. I think MMM addresses Concern #3: Doing Things The Hard Way Is Not Always Better. Multimillionaire Family Tracks Spending for a Year: They Spent How Much?!? You hit financial independence very quickly saving that much. I think all residents should read MMM! If you have been around this whole early retirement business long enough online, chances are good that you have run across a web site called Mr. Money Mustache. Facebook gives people the power to share … Have you been to the MMM forums? But going in my new fancy 410 hp wakeboat is going to be a lot more fun, especially because I'll be able to take twice as many fun people. Typically when people say they save 70% of their income (for example) they mean 70% of their take home pay. A simple life with simple pleasures can be lived very inexpensively and with reasonable financial management, can be coupled with a ridiculously short career. This is what I think you’ve missed: it’s NOT a choice between stuffing every penny into investments vs. buying stuff to make you happy. But there are more important things in life than a gallon of gas. I imagine this is frowned upon by potential employers, even in the volatile IT industry. Thanks to the practice above, you are now able to enjoy yourself in a much broader range of temperatures, and appreciate the comfort of shoes when you do have them. His posts are motivational, unique and inspiring for those who desire to live a more efficient life. I agree that DIYing is fun and useful. A friend rides a virtually new $4k tri-bike that he got in exchange for a few hours of consulting for a doctor friend who had it custom made, and then realized he really wasn’t a bicyclist. 1. We do have some differences. You now know one doc who would be honored if his kids wanted to go into medicine. In fact, rental boats are in general surprisingly difficult to find. Even though I like Mr. Money Mustache, I don’t like most of the readers who comment on his blog. I have a cake job as an orthodontist. Mr. Money Mustache may be frugal, but he's high income. This is unfortunate. Also love it because I love DIY and, honestly, my dream life involves being that person in Alaska building my own cabin…I do intend to reach financial independence as soon as possible so I can have my medical career on my terms: family time and the opportunity for international work that’s hard to get when almost maxing out a $400K salary. Can I afford it? . – Mr. Money Mustache (AKA Pete Adeney) Mr. Money Mustache ( @mrmoneymustache — Pete Adeney in real life) grew up in Canada in a family of mostly eccentric musicians. That’s a heckuva deal.  Its conversational writing style makes the blog easy to read. Yup, this. We are way behind on saving and have stupid amounts of debt, yet our earning potential is so high that “early retirement” doesn’t make sense, BUT the Mustachian principles do apply and “financial independence” is a worthy goal. All grain you are down to probably $20 and you aren’t counting equipment. Sounds like shaky ground to me…as I’ve seen many a young lady grow old at the expense of a non-commital man…and be out on the streets by themselves when your man wants kids and you can’t. In one month, I can earn more than I ever made in a year prior to my 30th birthday. Unfortunately googling just turned up this: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/21/i-just-gave-up-4000-per-month-to-keep-my-freedom-of-speech/. [One of my partners, who reads both MMM and WCI regularly says this, “I love MMM, but his bike sucks.”]. That’s it. Anonymous wrote:Mr money moustache is blocking people on his forum for criticizing his New Yorker article!!!! Then I will probably cut back hours and ramp up the luxury. Otherwise he’s a fantastic writer and I really enjoy reading his posts. That’s $48K. I agree that’s different from a scarcity mindset. We as physicians spent a very very long time to learn and be able to do what we do. I think he would consider you part of the internet retirement police. It’s a powerful, life-changing adjustment in perspective. It would take me months and it wouldn’t work right when I was done, but I can pay for a new tranny in a couple of days in the ER. Spend your money on what makes you happy and conversely, don't spend money on what doesn't make you any happier. Mr. Money Mustache is currently the North American (and maybe Canadian too) reigning champion of face punching financial efficiency. So I find using my gross income as the denominator to be far more accurate. One of the things I most appreciate about having money is using it to make my life easier, meaning not needing to plan out nearly as many details and while traveling, being able to just eat that food we found instead of looking for cheaper food. Some of his advice isn’t really practical, but that’s OK. He’s already given me a lot to think about for my next car purchase, for instance. But here we go anyway. I think there's a great deal of wisdom there. I’d rather be working at my practice, hanging out at the gym, or playing video games (sorry, WCI, but I just love Peggle). So, you’re already there because you make a ton of money. I love the work I do now. Mr. Money Mustache is the website and pseudonym of 47-year-old Canadian-born blogger Peter Adeney. I had a military rotation right in the middle of it, so I had several weeks on either side of the rotation with little to do and not enough time to do any real research or get any real job. Probably not. . As for your take on MMM vs. WCI’s take, you are both right. I’d rewrite point 4 to be, ‘for Mustachians one of the main focuses is not wasting money on things you don’t need or that don’t make you happier.” That’s very very different than a ‘scarcity mindset.’ Put more simply, a key element of Mustachianism is not embracing scarcity, or becoming a miser, but rejecting consumerism. Sermo (online physicians forum) feels the same way sometimes. Mr money mustache is explicitly anti-consumerist, and this makes people uncomfortable 540. share. Click to learn more!  Apparently, he rides his bike to the grocery store and pulls his groceries home in something that may resemble a baby stroller behind his bike. Mustachians focus almost exclusively on cutting financial expenses. Medicine is just not what I had hoped it was going to be. Live like youre a resident! As a dual engineer couple, our income is similar to one medium to high doctor income. There are only so many bikini inspectors and waterslide testers the world needs. Mr Money Mustache’s Contribution. I actually don’t spend much time on the MMM forums, or any forums on blogs that I enjoy, so I probably haven’t read the complaints of the hard-core job haters. Namely that homebrewing counts as a “cheap” hobby. I’m not, especially one that pays so well. It’s because he just stumbled across a competing personal finance blog that espouses blatantly Anti-Mustachian principles! For me though, the MMM gold is that before I read his blog I was stuck in the mindset that everything will be so much better when I am making a big physician salary and that residency is financial purgatory! For her it’s just her ride, and she has no trouble dropping the bike dudes on their new and silly-expensive carbon fiber rides (which somehow all seem to weigh more than her bike, despite the insane expense). As a surgeon you won’t need 7-10 years to pay your debts. I think MMM’s main focus is to reject consumerism as a source of happiness. But Mr. Money Mustache taught me about the other side of the coin - the ability to retire early based on a freaking high level of savings, which opened up an entirely new world of possibilities for me that, quite frankly, are far easier to accomplish than those based purely on high income. Next, the hospital owns all the local primary care docs, so all the referrals go to their employed surgeons. If you had 10 million in the bank would you be working the night shift and dealing with drug-seekers? This seems to be your summary of what you really think is the MMM message: “Is it best to stuff as much money into investments as you can so you can be truly FI ASAP, or is it okay to spend some money on stuff that makes you happy?” This is a false choice, and a misrepresentation of the MMM message. There are two major points that I see his “haters” misunderstanding. I’m not discouraging you from your current plan, I just want you to know the burn out can get better, and hopefully in a few years you’ll be able to find some satisfaction in what you do. I will then lead a very diverse and ever changing life that is very not-boring or monotonous. In Mustachian terminology, all of these thoughts relating to adapting your comfort level to embrace Nature are collectively referred to as Badassity. You don’t own a 600ft yacht, or a private jet, or an tropical island….you have already adjusted your living expenses to a level that you find prudent within your means. I predict every school she applies to will drool. I haven’t done that very often. We think interesting thoughts. So I use gross. Not me. Don’t ruin the planet. MMM lives on $25k a year. Part of this is I have dramatically reduced my fixed costs (food, utilities, insurance, etc) but it is also a matter of attitude. Do those responses to what I wrote sound like they come from people who like their jobs? But mountain biking in Sedona, Fruita, and Moab on my new fancy mountain bike is REALLY fun, but 100 times as expensive. I also get a satisfaction knowing I can pull out by tool box and replace a faucet or drain, or figure out how to build a small cottage, or replace my car’s clutch or lower control arm. But in personal finance, sometimes it is easier to cut expenses and sometimes it is easier to boost income. Or your utilities? So what I am I going to do, I’m going to live and save like I am going to retire in 7-10 years out. You can buy a luxury car with a month’s earnings. Financial independence is a movement, not a moment. I do my own yard work, I find it easy and fun. For example, I followed a link to the blog of a young retired attorney who followed a similar path to early retirement as Mr. Money Mustache. That was just over a year ago. I’m always interested to see real life vs internet personalities. Mr money mustache is explicitly anti-consumerist, and this makes people uncomfortable.  So this question is natural. Like with all personal finance folks (including me), take what you find useful and leave the rest.]. airports, harbors and highway systems are often poorly designed, built, maintained, and funded. Then what? She got it for $800 even though it had just been upgraded with a $1200 wheel set, $200 seat, new bars and CF seat post and front fork. Right now, my boyfriend and I happily live off of about 70-80% of our combined income, which is in the low multiple hundred thousand dollar range. I hope he stores his $400k a year in the same bag with his shit. There’s certainly a fine line to walk between the two. Is it best to stuff as much money into investments as you can so you can be truly FI ASAP, or is it okay to spend some money on stuff that makes you happy? If you’re going to take your taxes out before doing the calculation, why not your charitable contributions too? Everyone around you is wasting a ridiculously huge sum of money.  Through serious investments and a solid savings plan, the math proves how possible it is to quit the damn rat race sooner rather than later. On point two, you celebrate expensive hobbies (or rather, making what should be cheap hobbies expensive!). I enjoy doing it, and I now have a house full of beautiful, high quality furniture. I followed my dad into his practice 25 years ago, but what we’re doing now is 180 degrees from what he did in the 70’s and 80’s. Maybe I’m just an outlier, since I’ve found other supposedly expensive hobbies like traveling, collecting art, or collecting advanced degrees to be easy to do, and just as fun, without throwing around big wads of cash. Nature Itself told the Stoics what conditions they should learn to appreciate as humans – since they realized we are all in fact an integral part of Nature. There is plenty of waste in life, but sometimes wasted time is more expensive than wasted money, especially for a high earner. Mr. Money Mustache is the alias of a forty-one-year-old Canadian expatriate named Peter Adeney, who made or, more to the point, saved enough money in his twenties, working as a … She’s now been riding it long enough that it’s a highly collectable bike. Thanks for stopping by. He’s been a great role model for me in my formative post-grad years, as I no longer feel expected to compete with the (Dr.) Jones’ in my life. Maybe not a very nice car, but a car nonetheless. If your work sucks, the solution isn't necessarily to save some crazy percentage of your income so you can quit working ASAP. Avoid waste. And yet the MMM message resonates with me, and I follow much of it. We meet fascinating people. Having said that, I agree that not everyone needs to live up to his exact personal goals. He cuts through the BS and shows you how bad the “norm” has become when it comes to certain financial decisions. He lives in Longmont, Colorado. At that price I’ll have paid for the boat in a few more weeks of use. In 2011 Pete Adeney decided to create the blog “Mr Money Mustache” (MMM in short) out of “exasperation”. Mr Money Mustache noemt als tip om vermogen op te bouwen dat je minder geld moet uitgeven dan er binnenkomt. I think any reasonable person would agree those two statements aren’t equivalent. I have a buddy who works as a surgicalist. I was perusing the Mr. Money Mustache blog the other night on a slow night shift. And you’re not getting the satisfaction that I mentioned above, that figuring out how to do something properly, and then doing it (which was probably my favorite part of med school and residency) is something one can experience again, simply by taking on a personal project by painting your own walls.  Forget retiring in your 60s. Not my content to give away.]. Really, I think you’re being disingenuous on this point. Obviously there is an internet persona there, but you seem to be suggesting it is far more of a front than I had thought. The Mustachian way of life changed my finanical perspective. From Meet Mr. Money Mustache, the man who retired at 30: To hundreds of thousands of devotees, he is Mister Money Mustache. My kids are young and I want to enjoy that time, not work like a dog, then retire as soon as they graduate college! First, his story. I have my own little blog here at ThinkSaveRetire.com (less than a month old as of the time of this writing) that chronicles my journey towards the same worthy goal of jobless badassity (a term that I usually change to "badassery"). I think you fundamentally misunderstand, and misrepresent, what MMM is about. I hope he stores his $400k a year in the same bag with his shit. MMM’s philosophy is similar to the best-selling book 4-Hour Work Week, and I disagree with it completely. We also earn enough money to support causes we believe in. He's a total fraud. Also – working more becomes less exciting and after a point 50% of every dollar goes to the tax man. Why? Like this guy. I’d say I wouldn’t do my job for free, but if I stopped working for pay I’d still volunteer in our local free psychiatry clinic, so I guess I would. One the other hand MMM reminds me that I can ride my bike more, cut back on some things and makes me think about how much happiness something will actually bring me. I can see why you might feel as if his website is not set up to monetize the way it should. If they can afford these items and experiences while still meeting financial goals that are very easily met from working at the high paying job that they enjoy, then I say more power to them. Spend your money on what makes you happy and conversely, don’t spend money on what doesn’t make you any happier. He's a fan of simple living in natural surroundings. Really? Mr money mustache Bitcoin seat be used to buy merchandise anonymously. MMM’s point is that there is a deep pleasure in doing things yourself, by your own wits and motive power. (And by the way, I loved practicing medicine. I spend money on things I like. Another option is to pay money to buy time. However, with ** years into training, $400K in debt, and mouths to feed, my options are limited. I love the article, but I have to disagree with one point. I think this post is spot on…all the way to your observation that his blog is under-monetized–and MMM likely doesn’t give a hoot. I don’t know. Plus the paint probably looks better. kill off the loans. I think you completely wiff on point 3. Website revenue is highly correlated with traffic. And I guess that is a form of retirement (at least per MMM. They live in places that don't have roads to them, for example. , http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/. I am about to start on an extract witbeer with blackberry in the secondary. For me, he helped me focus spending, especially while on vacation, to things that I’ll actually use/enjoy. I appreciate the “shockingly simple math behind early retirement”, but I am not nearly as frugal as MMM and his wife. Doing things the hard way takes more time and energy and planning (mental energy) that may be able to be used in a better way that will contribute more to your happiness, your relationships, and the community around you. Mr. Money Mustache frequently extols the virtues of a walk or bike ride in a blizzard, working in his woodshop, or brewing his own beer. Do you really mean that? Let me sum it up in a nutshell. But there are some options. No sense in retiring until you have something meaningful to retire to. I'm also a fan of quality over quantity. Honestly, I love his blog. I do lots of stuff DIY-style. Probably not. I know of a place at Lake Powell where you can rent a crappy boat that doesn’t do what I want/need one to, yet costs nearly as much as a houseboat rental. Regarding renting a wake boat, please provide the name and location of a business in my state that rents a boat with a surfgate on it. I completely get it. Even though Mr. Money Mustache’s blog was nearing 500 articles by the time I first landed on the site, I started at the very beginning. Jet skis yes, wakeboats, no. Far too many people see retirement/working as binary, arbitrary, and mutually exclusive. The job-hating part is simply not consistent with what I’ve read on MMM. Glad you found something you liked more than medicine. He has trained himself to find great joy in these simple things.  I found it interesting...so interesting that it completely changed my life, for the better. That’s not the point. Hopefully I will continue enjoying work well into my 60s. Other times it is very well paid. Do you think doctors should retire after 7 years if they don't like their jobs? Just enough to still keep up skills over the years while not even coming close to getting burned out. A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. And yes, I saw your summary of the MMM philosophy. Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Money Mustache? It’s awfully nice right now. My wife and I retired early much earlier than normal retirement age, but nowhere near to MMM status. He has trained himself to find great joy in these simple things. I agree that if additional spending is not going to bring you significant additional happiness, then you shouldn’t do it. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. This exasperation came mainly from him having been retired a full six years, living happily with his children and wife, while his friends complained about how little money they had. Given that I pay 22-23% of my income in taxes (and that’s much lower than many docs), that’s unfortunately impossible for me. Some call him extreme, but I don't find him all that extreme, to be honest. Minimalism versus Frugality: Can They Coexist? In Alaska, there are a lot of people who like to do things the hard way. I don’t know– maybe as an attending I’ll discover joy in patient care again…but I do know, with MMM’s theology, I can always have that card in my back pocket. So I’m a fan of MMM. There are very few people in the world who have this knowledge and expertise. My main takeaway from reading his articles is not to sell my car and ride a bike everywhere, but to spend my money wisely on things or experiences that legitimately add happiness to my life. 50% is still pretty darn high. I did find a place that does rent real wakeboats comparable to mine in some surrounding states for $2800-3800 per day. just don’t burn out on saving money too! He (and his teachings) also remain surprisingly controversial. Thank you again for this wonderful, well reasoned and thoughtful article. 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